Comments on: Faith is Not a ‘Gift’ from God

By: flostre

flostre — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:03 +0000

It is a bit more complicated than that. Theism includes the belief that the god created humankind. The POTUS cannot give faith to anyone the way the deity supposedly can.

But please keep in mind that any believer who holds this position already admits that there is no influence of a god to the physical world, i.e. prayers don't work, etc. Otherwise that would be evidence.

By: Rob

Rob — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:03 +0000

I think you're approaching this with an incomplete definition of Christian faith. Christians tend to package basic tenets of Christianity up into the word "faith" and therefore using a dictionary definition of the word isn't sufficient to understand what the person in the quote is actually saying. What is Christian faith then? The best and most complete definition I have yet heard is "Faith is confidence that God is who he says he is and that he'll do what he promised he'll do". With that definition the quote makes a bit more sense. For more explanation see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRgahj2G-U

By: Rob

Rob — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:03 +0000

Alrightie….the form just ate my post again. There is some incorrect javascript on the textarea that safari correctly follows but firefox doesn't. The onBlur and onFocus events should work off of this.textContent instead if innerHTML. I'll try this again…

I thought the basic issue was whether faith is a gift. Using the definition from a christian point of view, yes, it is. The gift, per say, is the present progressive promises that God has outlined.

You are correct to assert that faith requires evidence, however I think you're talking about more "hope" then faith. Hoping something a lot does not make it so (like in the WMD example). If you watch the you tube video I linked Andy provides a much better explanation then I can on the difference.

The evidence can be found in the stories and lives found in the bible and in a believer's life. Most notably in the life and story of Jesus. I know, this probably isn't sufficient evidence that you were looking for but it is evidence nonetheless. I agree that having "hope" type faith is misguided but one of the foundations that my faith is founded in is the evidence that I have personally gathered and the truth found in the bible.

By: Jim

Jim — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:03 +0000

Ah, evidence. But that wouldn't make Jealous disappear in a puff of smoke?

By: jamesatracy

jamesatracy — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:02 +0000

I agree it is a bit more complicated than that. Certainly we should hold the alleged creator of the Universe to a much higher standard than the President of the United States. Either way, though, I disagree that it makes any sense at all to call faith a 'gift'. It is not a gift to say, hey, believe X without sufficient evidence!

By: jamesatracy

jamesatracy — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:02 +0000

I did not pull my definition from the dictionary. I created that definition based on my own observations. You said that, "Faith is confidence that God is who he says he is and that he’ll do what he promised he’ll do". That's fine, but it still doesn't address the basic issue here. What evidence is that confidence based on? One can be confident about X but still not have sufficient evidence to back up that confidence. You can call that faith, too, if you want. I will call it being misguided. Or at least mistaken.

By: jamesatracy

jamesatracy — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:02 +0000

I just decided to remove the offending javascript altogether – so hopefully no more headaches! Thanks for alerting me to that issue.

You defined Faith as a "confidence" that God exists and will do X, Y, and Z (essentially). Whether it is a confidence or a belief I don't think it much matters. If you instead say that the gift is not faith or belief itself (which in my opinion must be justified not 'given' away), but rather a certain set of promises that God will do something for you – then I have no objection.

I think people confusedly use the term 'faith' to mean a set of beliefs or a belief system. That's not how I am using the term. I am using the word faith in the following manner: Faith is believing the truth of a proposition without sufficient evidence. If you have sufficient evidence, then it is no longer faith, one can say that he or she has *reason* to believe.

You said, "The evidence can be found in the stories and lives found in the bible and in a believer’s life. Most notably in the life and story of Jesus. I know, this probably isn’t sufficient evidence that you were looking for but it is evidence nonetheless. I agree that having “hope” type faith is misguided but one of the foundations that my faith is founded in is the evidence that I have personally gathered and the truth found in the bible."

I have no issue in principle with your approach here. We may disagree on the quality and reliability of the evidence, but I do not disagree with the manner in which you are trying to justify your belief – ie, with evidence rather than faith.

By: Casey

Casey — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:02 +0000

I just wanted to say that Rob is thinking in circles, and making absolutely no sense. He's forcing James to repeat things everyone already knows, that he shouldn't have to state.

"the evidence that I have personally gathered and the truth found in the bible."

As in…none whatsoever?

"Faith is confidence that God is who he says he is and that he'll do what he promised he'll do"

How do you know that God said that? Why don't you ever question the validity of the bible?

The answer is simple. You have faith. Faith is unquestioning. If God told me something about himself, of course I would believe him. But God doesn't tell me anything. A book of ancient desert scribblings tells me about him.

"but it is evidence nonetheless."

An emphatic no.

By: jamesatracy

jamesatracy — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:02 +0000

Too bad Rob did not return to actually demonstrate what he finds so convincing about that 'evidence'.

By: ZeNeece

ZeNeece — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 04:00:02 +0000

I like your example too. :P I agree that faith is a ridiculous and dangerous concept. We'd still be in the iron age or even the stone age if all we had was faith. Oh, that's right! People who believe in the Abrahamic god still ARE in the Iron Age. It's downright crazy to blindly have faith. But I guess I understand it. It sure is easier than thinking for yourself.